Human Connection and the Future of Work
Episode Notes
On this week’s episode of 52 Humans, Paul catches up with Edie Goldberg. Edie and Paul discuss the future of work, and how human connection matters more than ever before.
About the Guest
Edie Goldberg, Ph. D.
Founder and President
E.L. Goldberg & Associates
Edie Goldberg is the Founder and President of E. L. Goldberg & Associates. She is a nationally recognized expert in talent management and the future of work. Her practice focuses on designing human resources processes and programs to attract, engage, develop, and retain employees. Her clients are from all industries and range from Fortune 10 companies to start-ups. Prior to starting her own firm over 20 years ago, Edie was a Global Thought Leader in the Human Capital Practice at Towers Perrin. In addition to her strategic advisory work she is also the Chair of the Board for the SHRM Foundation, and she is a member of the Board of Advisors for three HR Technology companies.
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Paul: Thank you for joining the conversation. Tell everybody a little bit about what you're doing. Like I love like I like I said not in a weird way. I've been following you for a while because we float in the same circles. We talked about this. And your name pops up a lot. But Future of Work Expert like what what is that? It seems to be a mysterious thing to people, what what exactly do you think about and do you do all day long.
Edie: So really, I have been working in the talent management space doing talent management, strategy, Organization Effectiveness for companies for 35 years. And when I think of myself as a future of work expert, it's really because I have been, I've been spending probably the last eight years, really looking at how the world of work is changing, and trying to develop new talent strategies that help companies meet the changing needs of the future of work. And so that might be everything from your company culture, to your performance management process to again, leading to my book that inside gig, an internal talent mobility strategy, something that is just taking off like a rocket in the last couple of years, I'd love to think it was because of my book. But I think there are a lot of business reasons that are requiring us to, you know, have more mobility with our employees, so we can become more agile as an organization. And so that's when I think of future of work. It's really about how are we, you know, I'm on a mission to change the way we work in organizations to make it more efficient, make it more effective, make it better for employees and for employers. So that's, that's kind of where I'm meeting them.
Paul: No, I love it. Because it is so needed. It's been so needed. I think the pandemic has kind of forced this all to the forefront. Part of the reason I wrote the book that I did, which is kind of similar to the work you're doing is how do we lead for what the future of work is? And how do leaders need to evolve and change? And so I'm just, I'm excited. I also think that you may disagree or agree, and I'm fine with either. I don't know what we I don't think we know yet what the future of look like what the next paradigm really is, because the dust really has even settled on getting rid of the old paradigm.
Edie: You know, COVID changed, obviously, the concept around flexibility in the workplace. And we certainly saw the need to be more agile, as kind of business strategies had to change pretty quickly. But you're I think you're right, I think we're just at the tip of the iceberg about how models of work are going to change. We talk today a lot about focusing more on skills than jobs. And that fundamentally up ends, everything that we think about how we manage talent within an organization. And the dust has not settled yet on what those new strategies are. They're they're really still emerging. And what's going to work at scale for organizations. So yeah, the future is not written yet.
Paul: No, no, which is, you know, it's I don't know, at least you know, I've been doing this 20ish years. And I don't know, there was a period of time in my career up until now that it's been so exciting. So scary at times, because we don't know, it's like, you got to you know, you can't fully bake anything. You've got to my focus, especially as I was running up to my last few months that indeed, was nothing's ever done any anymore. And we need to continue to evolve and we need to roll with what's going on and I think from an employee persona octave. It's exciting because it's really just about life. Now, if the company and the leader I think do it, right, this is my premise. If they do it, right, it's really about the employee leads a life and work as a component of life. And if they are allowed flexibility, and the skills based piece is so exciting, because instead of doing a job and a job description in some parts, you know, either we're not great at or we don't like, that's always the case, like think about if I can really lean into the skills that I'm great at and love and contribute in a meaningful way and accompany again, on the company side. That's, that's very challenging at scale. So figuring that out, if you haven't everybody listening, watching, if you have not read the inside gig, you should read the side gig, it is amazing. We did a little something like it at Indeed, while I was there, and it works. You just got to keep Be diligent at it. So Edie, so my question and the premise of 52. Humans is about human first leadership, can you talk a little bit about in your career and any facet of your career, where you've either displayed as a leader or a co worker, because it doesn't have to be a leadership employee role, I think these relationships are all relationships are interesting and can have something to do with this human first approach, where you've either displayed or you've had displayed to you or you've seen display this concept of human first or empathetic leadership and talk a little bit about that. And then I probably have a follow up question or two for you.
Edie: So there's one thing that just really comes to mind for me when I think about, you know, what does it mean to really kind of be human first and be present for somebody. And during the pandemic, I would say, over the last couple of years, a lot of organizations have been really concerned that they're kind of losing a piece of their culture, and people are not connected to their companies. And I think that has a lot to do with the employee employer relationship, and how they're connecting how they're really talking, if you will. And I reflect back on a time I was meeting with a colleague, she worked for Google at the time. And she was so present in that conversation, so much was going on around us. But she was listening with intent, and really focused on me our conversation, what was going on, and really deeply connecting, in a way that we do not listen to, on a regular basis. And I just recall thinking I've never felt so heard in my entire life. And I've certainly heard many times the opposite of that, you go into your manager's office, and they're responding to email, while they're talking to you, they're pausing because they have to take a call from somebody else more important than you, you know, when you feel really heard by your manager, by your leader, that creates an emotional connection, that is really, really special. I'm going to link that to some other research that happened during the pandemic, which was for the first time, because we were all you know, not in the same place. Everybody was working from home managers, right, what do I do HR was saying, talk to your people find out what's going on in their life? How are they doing? I mean, literally ask the question, how are you doing? Really? What's going on for you? Are you homeschooling your kids? Did somebody get laid off? You know, what are the distractions that you're having to deal with? How stressed Are you? Do you have a family member who's ill? What, what's going on? How are you? How can I support you? And that kind of deep connection that managers became to have with their employees was fundamentally different. And the research showed that that increased belonging within the organization, it increased that employee connection to both the company and their leader.
And so, you know, we really have the research to show that when you deeply listen, when you really ask caring questions, it fundamentally changes that relationship, both for the employee and the manager and the employee with that organization. So I think that's one of for me, if you will, the silver linings of thinking about our experience over the last couple of years, is that when we connect when we really connect and ask still questions that are important about supporting somebody else. It pays off in many, many ways.
Paul: I love the example because you're right, I think there was a perfect before the pandemic and I you referred to silver lining I kind of talked about there the silver threads that we've seen in the pandemic, and let's pull them through to the other side. And let's leave all the rest of the crap, like where it is, because there was a lot of crap for especially for HR folks. But when you just when you and we were perfunctory about like, oh, how you'd be in a conference room on a Monday morning, and you'd all be gathering for a Zoom meeting, you know, in different offices in different people in different offices, you know, how was your weekend and you kind of like what you'd ask it because it was like the thing to do. But you're right, during the pandemic, you ask these questions, and one of the questions that we were I was facilitating a session for some senior leaders, and indeed, around it was supposed to be around performance management, succession planning, and I'm like, I can't do this virtually for three days, because I is in April of 2020. Like, this is never gonna fly. And we turned it into a session for a senior team. And we sent an article from the Harvard Business Review, are you leading or managing through the crisis, which was interesting, and there's a difference? If you're managing or leading, you know, you're well aware of that. But we started the session off with how are you doing today, and I kind of thought, Alright, this will be like 10 or 15 minutes, people, like, I'm good, I'm worried about this. But it turned into like two and a half hours of basically a therapy session of a group of senior leaders, which you don't like in my career, I've never seen that type of emotion from a group of senior leaders. And really, honestly, like the humanity of it. And I think that's the, the interesting thing to me, especially with the example that you gave is, the other thing I saw, you probably saw this too, is during the pandemic, because we were forced to be in squares like this, I call it the Brady box, the Brady Bunch boxes. You You got a glimpse into another part of somebody's your employees lives. You know, we I'd have fancy graphics during the pandemic, I have fancy graphics. Now, you've got your setting. But like I also I met a grandfather, walking through one of the I was doing a multi skip level with an HR coordinator. And the grandfather was walking in the background. I said, Hey, like, Who is that? It's my grandfather. I'm so sorry. Like, let's chat, like, what do you think your granddaughter does? What does the company she works, where they go, just have this conversation. And so you got this interesting look into people's lives that you didn't get in the office. Because I do think to some extent in the office, we have a little bit of impostor syndrome, because we shared what we wanted to share. We were kind of forced to share more by being forced to work at home. And it's really interesting.
And I love the comments you made about how it made you feel like and the research because I think that you know that that's something that is as we look at companies today. And I'm, I'm a bit outspoken now on LinkedIn, since I worked for myself, about these returned to Office, these forced return to office like mandates that are out there, I will not name CEOs or companies, but we all know who they are.
And it's there's not been any data or research around that they've laid in, or at least that the press has shared with us. And so I think it's interesting to the data about belonging and like that, that goes to engagement, it also goes to retention because somebody that feels that they belong, and that there's a deeper connection probably is a little less likely to jump right away because of that connection. I don't know, you tell me what you think about like that, that my premise there and what you're seeing.
Edie: So first off, there is no research that says that people who are forced to return to the office feels less connected to their company, than people who are allowed to work remotely when they believe that that's the best place for them to be working. There is certainly a time for us to connect. And that is really important. You know, I think a lot of managers were reticent to say how are you really what's going on for you? Because they were afraid I'm not therapist, I can't I can't help you. But the truth of the matter is, according the World Health Organization, in the last couple years, we've lost a trillion dollars in productivity of people who have had anxiety and depression in the workplace, and we just don't talk about it, we sweep it under the rug. But if a manager is able to uncover that, obviously you have, you know, employee assistance programs or other services that you can, you know, move your employees toward or help them understand the benefits that the company offers to help them in those ways.
And, you know, workplace mental health and wellness is really important to productivity. And so when managers are connecting with people and find out that somebody really does have an issue It's not something we should be hiding about ourselves. I love the fact that during the pandemic, we learned about people's cats and dogs and their children. I heard so many stories, I didn't know you had kids, and all, you know, kids are screaming in the background running back and forth. It makes people human, right kind of theme of the show. It showed our humanity and it connected people in a completely different way. And so I think the learning is, how do we connect, how do we make it okay for people to bring their full selves to work, to share when they're struggling, so that we can help them so that we can increase the productivity of the organization, by you know, getting people the support that they need, but also just connecting personally, which will, you know, help with, you know, the research around people are feeling disconnected from their organization, it's because we, we don't get personal.
And I don't think that that's the best way to have a relationship at work, as you started talking about its work life integration, you know, it's work is a very big part of your life and, and making it real and making it important, and certainly making the rest of your life as important. You know, we need to find a way to mesh those two and help people live their best lives in a way that meets their personal needs and the organization's needs.
Paul: Absolutely, I the leader is such a big component of that. And I think you're right, the leaders I've talked to there, there's a bit of fear, like I can't, I'm not a therapist, but it's like, talking to a friend and asking them their how they're doing, I don't think I need to be their therapist, I can point them and like, hey, maybe you should talk to so and so. And certainly, if you're a leader and accompany EAP, mental health benefits, and I also love the fact that you brought up the mental health conversation because for so long, in the US, it was a taboo thing, like we just it was there's there's still a stigma attached to it. And the pandemic I think, has helped shine a light on it, and that it is really just part of taking care of a human being. And part of you know, the full employee, not just you know, their their medical, dental and vision insurance and 401k and things like that, and helping them get the resources or have access to the resources they need.
Edie: Yeah I could talk for hours. Just to add on that you mentioned in the beginning, in my introduction, that I'm the chair of the SHRM Foundation. And you know, we're really trying to create a world of work that works for all. And in the past couple of years, we have created a workplace mental health and wellness initiative to really make it okay to talk about these things in the workplace to provide the tools and the resources, we actually are just about to release a field guide for managers on how to have some of these conversations. And I'm so proud of the work that the foundation is doing, really to help people have conversations that don't make people hide in the shadows, because when people have to hide themselves in the shadows, they can't present at work.
Paul: Absolutely, absolutely. I like I said I could talk to you for hours about this. I'm gonna wrap things up now. Edie, thank you so, so much for taking time out of your day, to be with me to have this chat. I love the work that you're doing at the SHRM foundation. Like I said, if people haven't read your book, read the book, The Inside Gig.