Building Trust and Alignment Through Transparency
Episode Notes
In this episode, host Paul Wolf talks to Lulu Seikaly, senior corporate employment counsel at PayScale, about human first and empathetic leadership. Lulu shares examples of the impact of empathetic leadership on employee loyalty and organizational success, drawing from her own experiences of working with good and bad bosses. She also emphasizes the importance of soft skills and transparency in promoting trust and appreciation among employees. Additionally, Lulu talks about her role at PayScale in ensuring compliance with pay equity and pay transparency laws and how organizations can benefit from such laws by promoting fair and inclusive compensation practices.
About the Guest
Lulu Seikaly
Sr Corporate Employment Counsel, PayScale
Lulu Seikaly is a seasoned employment attorney with extensive experience in advising employers on employment-related issues, developing policies and processes to support employees, and conducting workplace investigations into allegations of misconduct, discrimination, harassment, and workplace bullying.
Her experience in representing employers across the country in EEOC and state agency charges of discrimination and retaliation has given her a deep understanding of the legal landscape surrounding employment law. She has defended employers in mediations, arbitrations, and administrative hearings and has developed best employer practices to minimize legal risk.
-
0:10
Hello and welcome to another weekly episode of 52 humans.
0:13
The vlog cast on stories of human first leadership.
0:17
I'm your host, Paul Wolf and I created this show to inspire us all to transform our workplaces by returning to the humanity that binds us today.
0:25
I'm really excited for our conversation.
0:28
I'm talking to Lulu psych about human first and empathetic leadership.
0:32
Lulu is the senior corporate employment counsel at pay scale and an amazing and fun human being.
0:37
I know that first hand because we know each other.
0:39
Lulu.
0:40
Welcome to the show.
0:41
Hi, Paul.
0:42
Thank you so much for inviting me.
0:43
I'm very excited to talk with you today.
0:44
It's so it's so I love saying I love your name like you.
0:47
I just said that to you a few minutes ago, but I just like your name.
0:50
Your name brings joy to me.
0:51
Talk to us a little bit about senior employment counsel at pay scale and what you do.
0:56
Yeah, absolutely.
0:57
So I actually, I partnered really closely with our people team or previously called the human resources team.
1:04
and with all things internal at pay scale as it as it pertains to employees, but I also track a lot of legislation since skills kind of a a compensate, it's a compensation platform.
1:15
We have to follow all sorts of pay equity and pay transparency laws.
1:19
So I'm kind of on first there when it comes to tracking kind of what's coming down the pipeline so we can make sure we help our customers be, be as compliant as they can be.
1:28
Yeah, I love that.
1:28
I follow you on linkedin.
1:30
I'm also a full full disclosure every watching a board member at pay scale.
1:33
That's how I know Lulu.
1:35
But I love the fact and I learned this from you last week on a comment you made on the linkedin Post that there is a federal law that's been brought forth, not, not that nobody's voted on it and it's got a, you know, debate and all that stuff about a federal law for pay transparency, which I think is the best thing in the world.
1:52
Like that's wonderful.
1:54
I hope it passes.
1:55
Great.
1:55
I'm so happy you're thinking about it.
1:57
It's actually at least it's on somebody's agenda and like it's out there and they'll have a conversation about it.
2:03
So talk to us today about your example of human first leadership.
2:07
Yeah, actually I'm going to go all the way back to, even before I was born.
2:10
To talk about my, my example.
2:13
because my example comes from my dad.
2:15
my, my parents are immigrants from Lebanon.
2:17
They, they came to the United States in 1984 and my dad's a doctor here and from a very, very early age, my dad said to me.
2:27
So skills is where it's at.
2:29
No matter if you're a doctor, whether you're a handyman or a lawyer, soft skills are going to be the thing that parachutes you in your career.
2:38
It's going to get people to really trust you and listen to you and like you.
2:43
and that's essential and not going to lie, Paul, that did not become more evident to me even when I became an adult and a practicing attorney.
2:51
So I went to law school, I, 100% was convinced I was going to be a prosecutor.
2:58
I was going to be in the courtroom.
2:59
I was going to be fighting for people's for people's rights.
3:02
And it was until I met my mentor who is still my mentor today who convinced me to go into employment law and his big hitch about the practice of employment law wasn't, you're gonna be fighting on behalf of employees to take it to the man of organizations.
3:19
And it wasn't, you're gonna defend organizations for, you know, screwing over employees.
3:24
But it was really being an employment lawyer, especially an employment lawyer for organizations, which is what I've done my entire career was really to be kind of the, the advocate between the business, the business makers and the employees.
3:41
It's not necessarily protecting one or the other.
3:44
And I experienced that first hand, in one of my first jobs right out of law school, I had a boss who was not well equipped to mentor a first year attorney.
3:56
this individual was an employment attorney and, you know, coming straight out from law school in my mid twenties, I thought to myself, well, all adults should have soft skills.
4:05
All adults should understand what it's like to manage other human beings.
4:09
And this was kind of a, a big shock to my face that this is not really the norm that it, it really takes a lot of hard work and effort to be a really good manager to be really intuitive when it comes to managing employees.
4:23
and going back to what my dad said, having those soft skills to be a really good human first and be really good at managing in life.
4:32
So my next job was actually the absolute complete opposite.
4:36
I, my managing partner was one of these guys who worked at these, one of like a really, really, really large law firm who had a really horrible experience at that law firm.
4:46
And he brought a bunch of big law people, decided to start his own firm, which was 30 people, 30 attorneys, which was, you know, not that small.
4:56
And he led first by saying, if you're ever going to get let go from my firm, it will never be a surprise and it's never going to be a one time warning or a second time warning.
5:07
It's going to be ongoing conversations.
5:10
And he led like that not only when it came to performance, but to pay so little did I know that this was kind of an opening into my future essentially for working at scale.
5:20
But he was he was very open.
5:23
His door was actually always open, not this like my door is always open, but you can never come talk to me sort of mentality, but you literally could call him at any time of the night, walk into his office, any time of day, have any kind of conversation with him that you, that you could and I stayed there for 5.5 years, which as an elder millennial, I think is like a very long period of time for, for people to stay at jobs in, in this day and age, I guess.
5:50
But this was huge for me moving forward, you know, going into my next jobs.
5:54
This was, this was a characteristic that I was not going to.
6:00
I, I was going to make sure that I looked at, you know, for my next boss, my next leader, the person I was going to work for.
6:06
And very luckily at pay scale, my leader during my interview before I was even hired, said to me if you get hired here.
6:13
And if you're with our organization for a long period of time.
6:16
And one day you wake up and you say no, not for me anymore.
6:19
I'm happy to help you move on to your next opportunity.
6:22
It's not a and I thought to myself that's empathetic, soft skills.
6:27
This is a leader I want to work for.
6:29
And, you know, funny enough, like I, like I said, it was kind of like the curtains were opening a little bit in my, in my last job, but, you know, came to pay scale and, and, you know, we're a software company that helps organizations create job architectures, market their data, but most importantly, help them evaluate if they're paying their folks internally equally to prepare for all of these laws, pay equity laws, pay transparency laws.
6:52
And we do a lot of research at pay scale and we've actually found that I any of your listeners right now, but majority of people leave jobs, not because of pay, but because they feel underappreciated and feeling appreciated, doesn't mean lunch, five days a week or happy hours or midday.
7:13
Yoga appreciation means good leaders who have empathy, good leaders who have soft skills and even more.
7:20
So the organizations who are transparent about pay and not necessarily transparent in the sense of I know what my coworkers are making.
7:27
But understanding how I'm being paid the way I'm being paid, why I'm being paid the way I'm being paid.
7:34
And that gets me to trust my organization more and get me to stay.
7:37
So that is a, that's, it's kind of like my, I think I went through a few different.
7:43
We got that.
7:45
We got your entire life there.
7:46
It was amazing.
7:47
There are a couple of things.
7:48
I love the boss that you had that you're the, the, when he started the firm on his own and you joined where if you're gonna get fired, it'll never be a surprise.
7:57
I and my last company all involuntary terms would come to me and your counterpart there, you, you the Lulu at that company.
8:05
And my first question when I was like, you know, I'd read the write up and I'd be like my question to the hire to the manager would be, is this person going to be surprised by this happening?
8:16
And if their answer was, yes, I'd be like, then I'm not approving it because we've done, we've done a disservice to this employee like it should never be a surprise.
8:23
There should be conversations, you know, you can put them on a performance improvement plan, a development plan like, you know, maybe it's a mismatch in person and job and let's figure that out if there's another job, open, things like like that.
8:34
So I love it.
8:35
It's, you know, my, my team always knew that too.
8:37
It's never gonna be a surprise.
8:39
If something bad's gonna happen, The other, I I your dad's advice is so spot on.
8:46
And like, you know, you think that back in 1984 or the mid eighties, this was, you know, I think for a long time leadership classes taught us not to be human or to be impostors to be, you know, superhuman if you will.
8:59
And I think human first leadership is, is the better way to approach it because we all have our own stuff going on and, and full lives along with working for a company.
9:10
a question for you when you went from the leader that was not good at empathetic leadership to the leader, that was the, the the firm that you joined.
9:19
Did you notice a shift in you as an employee?
9:24
Were you more, were you excited?
9:26
You know, did, did you get the Sunday scaries?
9:28
You know, there's, there's a that's floating around on linkedin these days.
9:31
Did you feel more loyal to your new boss because of his empathetic and, and human first leadership?
9:38
Well, it's funny because at first I was very hesitant about it.
9:42
I was like, there's no way I got a boss this good and my, and so like, you know, it's funny because like my family, they would all say to me, you got minor ptsd from this first job, get over it.
9:55
This is, this was one bad boss.
9:57
You've got to get over it.
9:58
Not everybody's like that.
9:59
So I I still remember the first mistake I made at the new firm with the empathetic boss thinking to myself.
10:06
And this is where I get fired.
10:07
I, I, because I, I still had PTSD from the first job.
10:11
And when I went to him and I admitted the mistake I made, he said to me it's not a big mistake.
10:18
You, the, the worst thing you could have done was not tell me and tried to fix it.
10:22
And it was in that moment where I said to myself, ok, great.
10:26
He's gonna let me make mistakes.
10:28
I became more comfortable in my role, which in turn led me to be more confident and he really entrusted me with what I was doing.
10:38
He trusted me so much.
10:39
He said, go make mistakes as long as they're not million dollar mistakes, it's ok.
10:45
You know, this is where you're here to learn.
10:47
He understood kind of the mentorship because I was still quite a baby attorney.
10:51
You know, when I was at this, at this job, and he said to me, the only way you're going to learn and remember not to make mistakes again is if you're about to make a huge mistake or if you do make a mistake and I'm here to support you.
11:02
But the worst thing you can do is not tell me about it because I can help fix it.
11:06
But once I realized that making mistakes was ok, I became confident and comfortable and that led me to become a much better attorney, much faster than I think I would have been.
11:16
Had I not had that kind of the, the safety net, I guess, to be able to make a mistake.
11:22
No, that culture, that's wonderful.
11:23
I love that.
11:24
It's such a, such a good story and I love the fact that we, you got to talk about your dad in it too and, and, you know, a boss that wasn't so great and a boss.
11:30
That was amazing.
11:32
Yeah.
11:32
Absolutely.
11:33
And my dad, my dad is so funny too because he'll even say, even if I'm like, calling, let's say I'm calling like, our accountant or something, you know, to do our taxes.
11:42
He's always like, did you at least ask about his family?
11:44
At first?
11:45
I'm like, of course, of course, I like asked about his family and how he was doing and, you know, all that stuff.
11:50
But I think also it's, it was the way my dad was raised, but I also think there's also just a little bit of Middle Eastern culture in there as well.
11:56
That, that's that when you want to go do business with somebody, regardless of what kind of business you're doing.
12:01
It's never get to the point immediately.
12:03
It's always, how was your day today?
12:05
How's the family?
12:06
How's, how are the kids, what do you eat today?
12:08
You know, let's go have dinner soon, et cetera.
12:10
So definitely something instilled in me very quickly.
12:13
We should all, we should all embrace that because at the end of the day, we're all human beings first.
12:16
And that's the one thing that makes us the same.
12:18
Exactly.
12:19
Love it.
12:19
I love all of it.
12:20
Thank you.
12:21
I could talk to you forever.
12:22
I can see you.
12:24
Thank you.
12:26
Thank you so much for taking the time to be on 52 humans today.
12:29
I appreciate you.
12:30
Thank you, Paul.
12:34
Thanks so much for joining us on 52 humans today.
12:36
If you enjoy this, please give me a follow.
12:38
I so appreciate all of your support.
12:40
If you want to watch past episodes or you have a story of human first leadership that you'd like to tell.
12:44
Please go to Paul Wolf dot com forward slash 52 humans.
12:48
And lastly as I do each week, I'm gonna ask each of you to reflect on one way that you can bring greater empathy to your workplace.
12:55
It's these small acts of kindness and humanity that create for a better work culture and ultimately a better world.
13:00
I'm Paul Wolf and I